Tenth session

John:

…Responsibility—I was thinking about it on the way down here, and getting anxious. You give up so many

Ruth:

things when you take on responsibility. You have to give up the crutch of being able to give it to somebody else.

You have some resistance maybe to seeing yourself as a responsible person.

John:

Yeah. Like there is a lot of stuff that comes with it. Like when you get it you have to—you know, suffering comes

with it. It involves a stick-to-it-iveness type of thing, like staying with something. It involves dealing effectively

with situations and feelings. It’s like, it’s almost like—what came into my head was my wife when she was in

labour, saying, ‘I can’t do it. I can’t do it.’ And that’s like what I’m afraid of, that I will get responsibility and

Ruth:

then think, ‘Oh God, I can’t do it, I can’t do it.’ You know, the fear of failure.

Well, I think the thing to do is to try to be concrete about what you think you can do and can’t do.

John:

Yeah, like not to take on more responsibility than I need to, and not feel responsible for things that are out of

my control. That’s another thing that I become involved in.

Ruth:

So, that’s pretty interesting. We started a few weeks ago with the idea that you can’t handle responsibility and

maybe you have gone a little bit past that to the idea, ‘Well, maybe I can handle it, but maybe if I do I’ll try to

John:

take too much responsibility.’

Right. I wrote down these different thoughts, like ‘I can’t handle the responsibilities of a perfect person’. I think

when I take responsibility on it’s almost like I have to take it on as a perfect person would and not feel this or

Ruth:

not feel that—like Dr Spock or something. I have to take it on in that respect.

Taking responsibility to you means that you are not supposed to have any feelings?

John:

Yeah. That’s a little distorted but that’s it. Responsibility is like— it’s hard to start thinking about it sometimes,

Ruth:

it’s like a key issue. Because once you abandon responsibility then you invite anxiety in its place.

That’s an interesting way of looking at it. But I think we would be doing better, you and I, if we stuck to the

John:

specifics.

OK, good.

Ruth:

So suppose you tell me about what happened today, on the way down here.

John:

Well, when I was going down, I stopped and got a soda and some crackers to eat because I really didn’t have a

chance to get lunch. I was going over this responsibility thing and I could feel anxiety coming on with thinking

about responsibility. You know, giving up things, you have to give up this and you have to give up that. And

then I had, like, an overload of feeling. Like what do you do if you overload? And, well, the overload could go

into anxiety, I thought. And so I wrote down [recording automatic thoughts], ‘How do I deal with torment?’

And the answer to that seemed to be, ‘Get out of torment by staying with it. If you try to get out of it, it stays

with you.’ So, that’s what I was doing. Instead of fleeing anxiety or the feelings of anxiety, I was staying with

it. That’s really the key responsibility, maybe not doing anything but just staying with it, just staying with the

moment, a little further, another block, another block, mentally as well as physically travelling, you know, just

Ruth:

stay with it.

Just following through rather than running away from it. Is that it?

John:

Right. Because earlier this morning when I was driving, I put a thought down that came to my mind because I

was thinking, thinking, thinking, and it was like a curse word, ‘Don’t “F” with the unconscious.’ That came into

my head. And I guess because of the reading [in psychoanalysis] that I’m doing, it was like ‘Stop screwing

around, stop meddling with things you shouldn’t be meddling with because they are going to explode in your

PANIC DISORDER AND AGORAPHOBIA 25

face’. Then I was thinking, ‘Well, what’s the worst that can happen there? What’s the worst that I could find

Ruth:

out about within my unconscious? It can’t be something that is going to kill me, it can’t threaten my life.’

What were you doing that you thought was meddling with the unconscious?

John:

Well, I was reading about the Oedipus complex. I was thinking that makes a lot of sense to me. In fact, that’s

what I was really getting angry about when I was driving down here—I realised that I really had some angry

feelings towards my mother. I didn’t think that she cared about me enough the times that I needed her. I really

Ruth:

needed her and I didn’t think that she cared about me. And that’s really—I was distraught over that.

You had this angry thought about your mother?

John:

Yeah. I feel real bad about it. I might start to cry about it. Because it’s like you feel like you have these ill

Ruth:

feelings, yet you are not supposed to have ill feelings against your mother.

What kind of person would have those feelings about his mother?

John:

I don’t know. I just have this feeling that society would think something must be wrong with a person who had

Ruth:

bad feelings about their mother.

So that is an assumption that you have. Society would think badly of you if you had angry feelings towards you

John:

mother?

Yeah. But it’s really me who is feeling bad about it. I’m just saying, it’s a ‘can’t win’ situation. You have bad

feelings about, let’s say your mom, she doesn’t care about you, but at the same time, you try to prevent yourself

Ruth:

from having these bad feelings.

Right. You have the feelings but you are angry at yourself for having the feelings.

John:

…And I had the thought that if I’m taking on responsibility, that means having to resolve some things with my

mother. How could I resolve that? The feeling of always wanting her to care about me. And deal with the fact

that I really can’t come to her as a child any more but as an adult. I guess in the back of your mind that’s why

you feel like you are helpless and anxious, because you feel like you are just a kid and if you could take your

problems to your mother, everything will be OK. She will take them from you. So, you can’t do that.

Ruth:

And have you been able to do that?

John:

Well, what I have been doing is putting distance between my parents and myself. If I don’t have to be in their

company, then I feel like maybe I can resolve it.

Ruth:

So, as a practical matter you have just been staying away from them. But there’s a thought that if you are close

to them, they will take away your problems? And at the same time you have a sense of resentment against your

John:

mother for not having been there in the past.

Yeah, there is.

Ruth:

So, that’s contradictory. What do you make of that?

John:

Maybe I think that she would come through this time. One time I was at the supermarket. I was working, I was

about 14 or 15. My dad was away and I came home and I was really nervous and upset, and I think I was doing

that to give her another chance. I keep giving her another chance. And when I see her I want her to be real

Ruth:

affectionate, give me a hug or something. This way she’ll get another chance to make up for it.

And does she make up for it?

John:

Not like I want her to.

Ruth:

What is it that you want?

John:

That she would be very warm, and hug me and say I’m glad that you are my son. All the things that I never

Ruth:

really got, you know.

What does it mean to you that you never got those things?

John:

Well, the one part of it you want to say is that I never got it because I didn’t deserve it, that’s the one part.

Ruth:

That’s what you think?

John:

Yeah, that I didn’t get it because I didn’t deserve it. Now the second part of it could be I didn’t get it, not

Ruth:

through any fault of my own, but because of her own problems.

Such as?

John:

Well, the other thing I thought about was she had a son who died. He was 17, and I was like 3 years old. That just

pains me to talk about. [Begins to cry.] But then when I try to think of it, I can sympathise with her because I

think of my dog dying and not wanting to have another dog. So that she probably wanted to insulate herself

from getting too involved with me. Because if she did and then something happened to me she would really be

Ruth:

devastated.

Was she warmer to your sister?

John:

I don’t really think I can say that. No. I think she just clammed up.

Ruth:

She clammed up after this boy died?

PANIC DISORDER AND AGORAPHOBIA 27

Ruth:

What does she do?

John:

She overprotects me.

Ruth:

For example.

John:

‘Don’t do this because you are going to get a cold.’ Just the other night she was there. I’m in a hurry to get out.

She says, ‘Do you lock your doors when you go out?’ In other words, she always seems like she is concerned

Ruth:

about my welfare.

So, would she do that if she didn’t care about you? If you were a worthless good-for-nothing?

John:

No. I understand it really. Even though she doesn’t want to get intimately involved because of losing her son, at

Ruth:

the same time, she did love me because she wanted nothing to happen to me.

Yeah. That’s—

John:

Just like anybody. Like you could get divorced, and you would like to have a relationship but you don’t want to

Ruth:

fall right back into it —the same thing.

Yeah, but I think you can take it even farther. You don’t know that she was any more intimate with your

brother. You may just be picking up a lot of idealisation in retrospect. You don’t really know that she was any

John:

warmer.

Right. Because she is like that with my sister and she was older when our brother died, so she would have

Ruth:

noticed a big difference.

So it may be that your mother just has this kind of restricted ability to express emotion. It may be that, with her,

you have to read between the lines. It’s as though ‘Lock your doors at night’, that’s a code word for ‘I love you

John:

and I care about you and I value you and I’m glad you’re my son’.

Yeah, right, that is.

Ruth:

But you have to be old enough to decode it.

John:

Yeah, exactly. I understand that. I’m surprised really that that came out about my brother. I wasn’t conscious of

Ruth:

it.

You weren’t conscious of it but you are conscious of having some need that wasn’t met with your mother. You

John: Right.

were conscious that you had felt for a long time like you are just not up to snuff.

Ruth:

Just hearing this over and over again.

John:

Right. I remember going to the cemetery every Sunday to revere him. He became just almost like a saint.

Ruth:

OK, let’s see what we have learned here. You have a fear that you are incapable, that you can’t take on

responsibility. And then you begin to see that you have taken on too much responsibility. You’ve taken on the

John:

responsibility for trying to live up to saintly standards.

Right.

Ruth:

It may be that being a responsible adult may actually decrease the demands on you! It might be that just leading

an ordinary life as an adult and managing decisions and not running excessively for help, that might be easier for

John:

you than what you have been trying to do. Because what you have been trying to do apparently is—

Is live up to great expectations.

Ruth:

Live up to great expectations. Get your mother to give some sign of warmth she may be incapable of producing.

In other words, trying to do the impossible. But there is also this idea that it is a terrible thing to have angry

John:

feelings towards her. How much do you believe that?

Well, you know. I have given myself good reason to have angry feelings towards her, you know. Like a child

Ruth:

definitely gets angry if you are not affectionate to him.

OK, so the child in you is very, very angry, but there is the parent in you who says that is terrible, terrible, you

shouldn’t have that awful feeling. You’re a bad boy. Now the question is: What are the rational responses to

John:

these thoughts?

That you were right to feel angry about that as a child, but it’s time to give it up. Now it’s time to look at it—

like what we are doing, try to analyse it, be objective about it, see the different sides of it. How you felt, how

she felt. Recognise that it is not something that just goes away overnight, but if you can recognise it, then you

Ruth:

can deal with it.

Yeah, I would say that’s fair.

John:

But realistically I recognise that there are a lot of people walking around who have very mixed feelings about

their parents. In fact, I don’t know anybody who doesn’t. They have good features and they have bad features—

when you get older, you do see their limitations. But hopefully you can put it in place and realise few people are

perfect people or perfect parents and really good in all aspects of being adult.