[End of Tape 4]

I do not remember the exact; I do not know who was there. I remember Greg that you asked me, you said something about I guess you were concerned about the office being in Jimmy’s house. You said, maybe you should be the one to tell Jimmy you know. I remember thinking at that time because I was so in awe of you that you were a trustee. I thought that well maybe he has a point. I actually thought that, but then the second thought that came to my mind was why you did not do that, that was your sponsor. So, you know I did not understand what was going on at that time.

Anyway, the next thing that started to happen was that we started to receive. Like the feeling at the office was that oh okay, the fellowship wants the office out of Jimmy’s house. All right let us see if we can get an office close by if that is all they want you know let’s try it. We all talked about it but there were no funds for rent. Nobody ever thought out here, anywhere outside of California. Nobody stopped to think you know where is all this money coming from? Douglas at that time was the chairman of the Southern California region and there were only meetings at that time one a month or once every two months, I forget every two months right. Now what happened was we got wind of this about two months before the next coming up conference. The regional had already happened and so Douglas called up all the ASRs in the region on the phone. I was there, I heard it and there was nothing sneaky about it. It was even in the guidelines at that, time that emergency meetings, could be called for discussions could be over the phone. He called up every ASR and explained look at the World Conference we want to get the WSO into an office you know and we do not have any money to do it. It will most likely be an issue at the World Service Conference and so we need eight hundred dollars, that is what we needed for the rent the first and last or whatever, yes first and last. So ASR said yes every ASR and when the treasurer, I forget her name but she was from the Bay Area. When she was asked for the check, she said ok I will get it over to you tomorrow and she never came with the check. What she had done was gone to somebody I don’t know who and next thing you know I think it was Chuck Skinner and somebody else on the BOT start shooting messages to the entire fellowships by letter, do not send any more money to the WSO, without telling the WSO their intentions. This was this created a lot of disunity first of all it usurped the trustees stepped in and were trying to essentially do the job of the chairman of the Southern California Region. At that time, my feeling was that nobody ever had the balls to confront one another. It was always done behind everybody’s backs. We got into the office in the end anyway but the real intent of everything was to not get office out of Jimmy’s house but to get Jimmy out of the WSO. That was the real intent and that was realized at that year’s conference.

I watched you Greg. I am sorry; I watched how you used people on the east coast. You used Jim Miller, Joseph Procter and Bo Sewell to do your bidding. I do not know why you found it in your heart that, I do not know why you could not have gotten up to the podium and made those motions. But every time Chuck Gates said that motion is out of order and it will not be heard here, they would come running back to your table. You the great thinker and leader that you were would tell them how to reword that motion. I watched you, we were this far apart. You know how I know. Because at lunchtime when all those people went out to lunch Bill Beck and I went up to those tables and tore all your mother fucking notes up. You know because you came with a fucking strategy like you were out for blood, we saw these notes, and it was like a chess game. You had it all, it must have taken you months to figure how you were going to fuck this old man you know basically. So we went around very the dope fiends that we were, excuse me very much and we just took your notes and tore them up and I will admit to that and it felt good because to watch all of you to come back to your seats with your asses showing not knowing what to do. What am I going to do now we have to start all over? But you quickly reassembled and so at least we knew who the monster was by that time. I feel at that time that a lot of the RSRs coming in from the Midwest and the east coast and outside of California they were coming and they were witnessing something ugly and something untrue. You were hearing people air their dirty laundry from twenty years ago. You know I guess that is what I am doing today, I mean you guys wanted to hear that. I am glad that Bo and Greg finally showed up. Tell you the truth Bo, you know at all the conventions that I have run into you I have thought that it was very obvious that I did not want to talk to you and it has always made me uncomfortable when you keep trying to approach me. I have thought certainly by now you must know how I feel, so now that we are face to face and you know how I feel. Last night you guys missed something good because just about everybody in this room came up and talked about why they were here. You know I did not hear many people talking about you know they want to know what happened and they want to know why it should not happen again. You know these are some of the things you want to know.

Jimmy Kinnon at one point, Betty was very right on about this I remember it. Jimmy Kinnon refused to believe that certain people he grew up with in Narcotics Anonymous would do this to him, would really and truly betray him like this. That is why Bill Beck taped that phone conversation you know and we had to take it back and let Jimmy listen to it and he was floored, he was hurt. The thing with the Basic Text you know I can kind of understand it you know, it was your baby. You know this was your baby your thing that you worked on. I know what it feels like to love something you know to hold onto it, because that is what I felt like about the office you know that was my, our baby. We thought we were doing what was best for the addict you know. We wanted to be apart of that just like you wanted to be apart of the Basic Text thing. The office never wanted to stop the Basic Text from coming around. You blindly side stepped the office; you refused to even acknowledge that the office even existed. The ways and means that you went about, the ways and means that this fellowship went about to throw this man out and lock him out of the office was disgraceful. I you know in 1982 I said fuck you California and I left. I left Douglas and that stinking state and I said I am never going to a conference again and I am never being of service in the structure until it is right. To me in my opinion it has only gotten worse because now what has happened is you are all sitting there saying what happened you know. Well you know what you assholes put those people in there you know I mean maybe not you per se but the people that represented you went out there. They were used and manipulated and what do they do now buy you a shrimp dinner, I mean you go out there now and you have the innocent RSRs that represent thousands of people, thousands of people and all they go by is the agenda. You go there and man, I know how these people are. I have worked with them and I do not have any respect for most of them. They do not intimidate me with their time you know I know what they do they lobby. They take these RSRs and they tell them how to vote, come on. You know what if we were really following what this fellowship wanted half this shit that comes on the floor would never come up our conferences would only last a day you know. Those are the issues in the fellowship they do not have anything to do with this other crap. The other thing that has been going on for years and years, why should a person who represents nobody get a vote you know that has never made since to me. What do they want to have now sixty‑five trustees? You know something else that the forefathers of our constitution wrote, they realized that power corrupts well I see how power has corrupted our fellowship. I see it happening today you know when I work with sponsee’s they do not know. I rarely tell them what I did, yeah I tell them that I knew Jimmy and Betty and Bill but I do not tell them about all that shit. I never tell them, you know how they hear it, when they hear me on a tape or they hear me at a convention they are floored because it is painful it is very painful. I pray man I cannot tell you how much fucking sage I lit and incense I burned and prayers I said. You know fuck it here it is. To me you know the founder of this program is Jimmy Kinnon and sometimes I think the reason, the reason it is so hard for some people in this fellowship to acknowledge that is because they do not want to be held accountable for their actions. If that means inventing up a new fucking history then that is the lengths they are willing to go to, then I say go home and clean house. That is what I did I resigned from this bullshit and if I had anything to do with it I am out of it. You know I am sorry this is not the way I planned it.

All I see now at the WSO is confusion and the thing of exclusion. I think all you know what they are collecting out there; they are not collecting the spiritual saints of our program. They are collecting the big thinkers the politicians you know. So when you go out there do not forget that you are representing your people you know your home group. Another thing that uses to be one of the sore points is a lot of addicts, I guess it is their tendency to think well if someone else will do it for us let them do it. That is why it took us so long to get a book, because shit we had an AA book, you know fuck it why fix it if something is working. One of the issues I saw becoming a problem was do not send an RSR with a vote of confidence. We are humans we are going to go there if you give us free rein to vote anyway we see fit. We are just going to be voting on everything. An RSRs purpose I believe is to represent the conscience of his people that he represents and that has been the falling away. NA worked better when we had nothing when we had no money, when we had nothing you know. I have seen how money, property, and prestige have continued to hurt people. I do not like these ideas about 12 concepts being handed down to me and taking my vote away, you know taking my voice away. It has gotten very smooth you know out there and to me what I see it is just a chipping away of taking away your voice. You can come up here with all your fine big words and stuff but to me that is all it is you just want to hold onto your power. I meant to really just get up here and talk about the Jimmy that I knew but there is so much information out there about that personally met the man and what he did for people. A lot of people got hurt, a lot of people got hurt. Back then when Southern California when all this shit was happening we could not go home after the conference and talk about all this shit because first of all who the hell would believe us you know. So we took it out on each other. We fought at home we yelled at each other in the car. I remember almost strangling Jerry Pulcarro one year you know because I was so upset. I invited my sponsor who was not involved in service Cathy to come to the conference and I said come on you would meet all of these people from out of state. You know she sat in the back and wept, she was disgusted you know. All I can tell you is maybe there are some pioneers sitting in this room tonight that can carry on the spirit of Narcotics Anonymous in the way that it was introduced to me along time ago. About helping one another about including all of us and how we are all important and how we all have something to offer one another. I just wish that here were more people here today and you know I use to hear the old saying that resentments will kill the addicts. No, they have not killed me, rejection will kill me but I have lived with this part in my recovery this whole time. I will be clean thirteen years in a couple of weeks and all this time this is the only area in my recovery that is not resolved, the only part. You know I think this fellowship owes an apology to the Kinnon Family. I think they owe an apology to a lot of people. I think they have to stand up if the want my respect they have to stand up and say some things. You know say what, I ask God for understanding but I am not hearing any. That is why I am here; I want some light shed for me. I love Narcotics Anonymous. I would not be here today if it were not for Narcotics Anonymous. Everything that is good in my life is a result of Narcotics Anonymous, my children, my husband, my home my friends, my clean time, my health, everything. I am not the same person as I was when I got here. Once upon a time I was taught we get involved in service to stay clean we are all replaceable you know so I just want to say that. Thanks for letting me share. (Applause)

Tape 5

Montgomery History Conference 1991

Speaker: Bob B. - Thanks Fawn, I am excited let me take a deep breath here and relax for a second because I don’t even know most of this stuff and I got real excited so I imagine some of you guys are jumping around. In fact maybe we can have another moment of silence, everybody. Then let us get on with it. Bob you want to come up here and talk a little bit about the office too, yeah Bob we got lots of time. (Applause)

I got so involved with what Fawn was talking about that I had almost forgot there is a lot of things that go along with what she was talking about. Some things are out of sync in terms of time frame and that is okay too because I think they can be taken care of in terms of what times they happened and what order they happened in. I think we have to be responsible for about a lot of things we had to do at any given time. Sometimes we have to make hard fast decisions, not everybody is going to like it, and somebody is going to get hurt, me, you and everyone else here. We have to resolve that within ourselves in terms of hoping that we are doing our best that we know how to do at that particular time. It is unfortunate that there were feelings hurt. I think feelings were hurt probably on both sides, the ones that were perpetrating and the ones that were perpetrated against. I don’t like to make decisions, I don’t even like to be apart of them most of the time if I can just let it happen by itself by some osmosis or something I would probably let that take place. However, we are living in a real world and sometimes we have to take those risks about making those decisions that are unpopular. Somebody is not going to like it and that is the way things are. I wish the world was different but it is not and human nature is different and it is what it is.

During those growing years and I think one of the things that happened during those growing years. You are talking about yes we had great labors of love that went on that we could do voluntarily. As we grew we out grew the possibility of doing those things on a voluntary level. Yes, I was in agreement with one of the decisions that were made that was kind of very difficult. It was not made in terms of whipping nobody or forcing nobody. It was kind of a decision that was made that was thought was necessary for the time. Yes I was apart of that, that agreed at the time that Jimmy needed to step aside and let somebody be another office manager. As you so stated earlier he knew about it beforehand. The way it was done I probably did not agree with the way it was done. I was not apart of how it was done, I was in agreement that it should have been done, and it was. I do not know of any soft pleasant ways to say, to do things that are difficult. I do not know if I could have carried out the act myself, personally.

Greg and I our self were dismissed from the office board because we were so much involved with the BOT directly that they had or felt they had to make some of those decisions. Once again, we are talking about the relationship between the conference and the BOT or the people who thought they were in power or in power to do something. Sometime we felt that we were in power to do something because we had no other oppositions, nobody to tell us different. Even by the authority of Jimmy because he was apart of that same decision making policy for a lot of years himself along with us. There was nobody else to make those decisions. Sometimes we had to it upon ourselves only by the sake of what do we think is best for the fellowship as a whole. How do you think we should accomplish it? Set about the wheels in progress of doing it and taking the flack that came back from it. A part of the flack was disagreement not we took hey we remained a whipping boards for many years even we were not involved in the decision‑making. They did bring the conference along and the conference that came from across the nation. Hopefully you sent you best personnel to do that job to carry your thinking and your ideas from that particular area, region to participate in what happens in Narcotics Anonymous. Hoping you are getting your personnel selves out of the way and trying to work in terms of NA as a whole. Yes, we have a lot of strong personalities in Narcotics Anonymous. I mean we will fight for our right to be wrong. I guess it is rightly so in many ways as that is the reason you are there to deal with what comes before that particular conference and what was before the World Service Office. I do not agree that the WSO is no great power personally. There may be a lot of things that are happening at the WSO that I do not agree with. I am not apart of World service myself personally and everything that I do, I do on my own and I like it that way. It gives me some other latitudes and not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. It is called what Bob feels is purposeful for him and what I think is best for the job to be done. Hopefully the division, which we are talking about, is not irreparable. I think it is something that we have to learn how to come together even when we disagree. To find out that objective in which we are trying to achieve and find out how we can best implement whatever method in order to achieve that objective. The WSO yes if it, but hey we never had a WSO to go back to or have a history of.

We had to build from scratch and to make all the mistakes as necessary when you are trying to start a business. We have never been along this road before and I do not know nobody else that has been along this road the way that we have been along this road. This is all new it was all new territory. Jimmy in his wisdom was not an administrator in terms of running a business. He was a roofer. He had certain knowledgeable things of how to do things but that was not one of them. Business was not one of his hold cards. He even went to school to try and learn some things about some business things but he was not prepared for the momentously job that came about at the time of the publication of the Basic Text. It was almost overwhelming not only talking about dealing with the people that ran off, or went bankrupt on Narcotics Anonymous. It is part of the carry over of saying that the WSO of yesterday is the same WSO of today is not true either. It is a market ably different completely. I think that there are a whole number of things that we have to come to understand that was happening yesterday perhaps is not happening today hopefully. Hopefully, we have learned in our making of whatever mistakes we have made that there was some areas that needed to be taken care of. But it is incumbent upon you as a fellowship because they are doing the job very often, of what you tell them to do, to be involved in making those decisions. In other words you give them, the work to do hopefully you will let them do the work. Very often, I notice one thing there is a lot of interference. You give them a job and then you tell them how to do it. What is the use in giving them a job if you are going to tell them how to do it? Hopefully you will get someone in there that knows how to do it, because all those people are replaceable. We are all replaceable. Now if you think somebody in there is getting out of hand and got to much power, remove them. (Audience: How?) By whatever methods it takes to have somebody removed. Now if you are asking me how, I do not know how, right I cannot give you an answer but you have the power to do it the fellowship has the power to do that. Now you find out how. Do not leave it on me because that is what we have been doing before passing it off to somebody else. How we going to do that, you come over here and do it for me. No, you have to get involved in the process; you must get involved in the process. Sometimes we do not like to get involved in the process because we do not want to be unpopular either. We are going to get pointed at he said that. We do not like to be unpopular; we all want to be very popular. Some of us are going to have to stand our ground and be unpopular. Sorry that way it is, is the way it is, especially if you are standing in the position where I am standing in front of a podium telling you about certain things. At some point, I might be unpopular because I am going to say something perhaps that nobody do not like. Hey, it is ok, it is all right. I understand human nature and where it is coming from, but I think we have a meeting ground that we can all work together on. I have found that time and time again. If I have learned nothing more than that from Jimmy, I have learned that we could work together regardless of what this here head get off on tangents on that we can work together. We do that particular process on finding the common ground on which we can work together.

The office, the WSO you know even in its infancy was merely, started out more of a collecting place where people could meet, where we established an address and a Post Office box. Where we gathered the material that was, suppose to be sent out, this job becomes larger and larger and larger. I do not really believe that some people can really visualize the scope of world level organization. I think it is almost incomprehensible unless you go and sit down a day and see the operation of a world level organization. To know how much work is involved in operating a world level organization. We become very centralized and think that all that needs to be taken care is our immediate meeting place or area and we forget that this is a world organization. You understand a world organization that has many complexities and many molds of understanding that are not like ours that have to be dealt with. There are many tasks to be performed in the process of bringing it all together and carrying the message.

So until we can realize or visualize that concept of a world organization and that somebody is trying to put the pieces together and hold it together I think we are kind of short changed in understanding as to the work that needs to be done. I heard it said somebody was talking about going back to the volunteer system. I hope that you form your own individual volunteer system to take care of the works that need to be done in the immediate area. See because when you get so far a field of doing everybody else’s works that we do not take care of the work at home. One of my reasons for they say not being at world level in fact is at being at no level in terms of where there is any titles is the freedom which I have to do as I please in a sense of speaking. Not only that, the need for me to grow is the need for me not to have a title is to be just another member of Narcotics Anonymous. To see what job needs to be done and trying to be apart of that job that needs to be done. It simplifies it for me; it makes it very simple for me. I think one of the things about they say at the WSO you hear me talking about the early days you know that yes we had difficulties.

There was a lot of differences of opinion of who ran it or what or how. I think as I said my thinking then and had always been that Jimmy would always be a part of Narcotics Anonymous and never to not have a place at any given time. I keep hearing this thing We threw him out, yes they had changed the locks on the door, I was unaware of the changing of the lock on the door but that was done by the new manager that was not one of us in the sense of speaking that was done by the. For whatever reasons he must have thought that was the way to do things, I do not know, because I did not ask him I knew it was an event that occurred. It would not have been a way that I would have handled it but the event did occur, but he still had a place. Everybody that was on the BOT knew that he had a place in Narcotics Anonymous. The fact is they sat a place aside for him that he could put anything and do what he wants to at the office. So part of the idea that he had no place at Narcotics Anonymous, I do not know where that comes from. I know where it came from but I am not going to get into it I am not going to give no more copy on that. It occurred there were many bad feelings as were talked about earlier as a result of it. Part of the separation is still there a lot of the hurts is still there. It is unfortunate that they are, you know I wish that it could have been some very smooth way of dealing with it I do not know. That is past that is history that is history. So I think we can only go from today.

Today is a very historical moment in terms of we have been able to discuss what has been going on. Maybe to be able to come to a better understanding as to what transpired , because I think much of the attitudes and what I am hearing has been champion in this particular area, I do not know why. But we are still talking about that misinformation this morning. We have a lot of misinformation because sometimes we do not want to talk to our partner who has the information. Sometimes all it takes is the question, what happened, how did it happen, who said what. Sometimes we do not even ask the question because we want to conceive in our head that this is the way it happened, and this is the way it happened, and that is not the way it happened at all. But we get entrenched there, I do at many times and I have to get back to that place of keeping an open mind. Get back to that place of keeping your open mind, get back to that place of keeping your open mind, practicing these principles once again getting back to some basics because we are talking about recovery. I am not talking about service at all because the item I must do is recover from all these here character defects and shortcomings that I have. I am still in recovery although I might be in service I am in recovery and I hope I am always in the process of recovering. Because, I don’t know what I would do if I got well, see I know to many people that got well, and we have buried a few people who have gotten well, and I don’t want to be apart of that. See I am learning how to live today and I think one of the processes here in terms of saying dealing with offices and dealing with conference I think we have to get back to the people. The people are the one that represents it if you are not being represented then you need to get you somebody that will represent you, very simple. How did they get into office in the first place, you put them there. How do you get them out of office, you take them out same way and I realize we got some strong personalities and hopefully that we will learn in the process is that we do have a voice. Sometimes you must stand up, speak, and say what you must say. Sometimes you have to be unpopular in the process. Because the one that is going to best represent you may not be, the one that is loudest and they think they got the most power. You might have to watch that person over there thinking clearly making good decisions that might be the one you want up there to represent you the way you need to be represented. So we best have some choices in that area, mostly we have to be apart of that process. There is no place in Narcotics Anonymous where you cannot be effective in some way. I am glad it is that way. We all have some idea that someone up in some hierarchy is running things. Most of the things they are doing are things that you told them or gave them permission to do. By your representation, it may not be by word, but by your representation and what you thought was implied that you thought you wanted to have done. They are doing it to the best of their ability on all cases I know of they are doing it to the best of their ability. There are some mistakes made along the way. In none of these instances do I know anybody that had not made mistakes. That is the nature of the human nature; they will make mistakes if they are human. I know damn well if a computer makes mistakes, I know damn well people can.

So the office had been kind of a thorn in many people’s sides because that is where you get your information from. It is usually written so that it cannot be distorted by this is what you heard. See the rest of it you can pass off as this is what I heard, and so they are not responsible. Yes they are they are spreading bullshit, they are responsible. But you can always point at the WSO because they did not document it there and they sent you the paper. You got the paper right in front of you and they said so and so and so. It may be a response to something that you said but you got it documented so they become the target. They are very; the target is the WSO, right. Sometimes you do not want to say that the conference was involved because the conference usually tells the WSO what to do. You do not want to say that because they are your immediate peers, they surround you so you do not want to blame them. Therefore, you do not use them, because you can question them you do not want to talk to them so you focus on the WSO. The WSO is full of shit. If they are, you pumped them up.

Fawn: Just say it Betty

Betty: I would like to ask you a question. Is there trustees working in the WSO right now?

Bob: I do not think so

Room: musical chairs

Bob: No, what musical chairs, what trustee is working in office.

Betty: Are they involved in the conference, I mean are they ( ) checks and balances in there

Bob: They are part of the conference,

Betty: ( ) checks and balances in there

Bob: Yes, with the conference it is.

Room: No, not anymore

Bob: When did they change it?

Room: The bottom line is that there are more BOD represented, trustees and special workers who ( ) that counts

Bob: Well what I am saying is . . .

Room: the people sitting in the house and in the gallery that don’t vote and BOD and trustees that do vote that their RSRs did not ( )

Bob: Well, if that is the case, then maybe you need to change your guidelines.

Room: They do not follow guidelines that we approve, nothing

Bob: Wait, wait, wait a minute, who said they don’t?

Fawn: I have been on World Lit and I have seen

Bob: See you said World Lit; I am not on World Lit

Room: (everybody is talking at once)

(Somebody stepped to the mic) Excuse me, excuse me everybody, hang on for a second now. Now before this gets to far out of hand everybody is going to get their chance and all the sides are going to be heard. Let us not try to get to defensive here and attack here and just try to come together and put it on the table. A lot of us here do not know nothing and we want to hear all of it in due time though and we cannot all hear it at the same time. Why don’t we allow the person who is sharing up here to finish sharing? We are going to have an agenda setting up kind of thing at nine o’clock and we can start maybe setting up a way that a lot of these things can be answered. We have the whole weekend we have the whole weekend. Let us let this thing take its course now and let everybody get their say.

Room: Why are we afraid of the (motion, emotion) there is nobody going to attack him, we are being spontaneous and sometimes

Podium: Unfortunately, nobody can hear everything though; we need to do it in an orderly fashion. There will be time for this. I am not the director of what is going on here (audience remarks) but I am chairing this meeting and it is in a format. If we could

Betty: Can we, I understood that when we came here we would be able to ask questions of the speaker, so if we raise our hands and ask questions is that allowed?

Podium: Is that ok

Bob: That is ok with me because I am not the authority of anything so you asking me once again as I said before you will are asking me questions that I am not an authority on. So I cannot give you a solid answer that you can bank on. I cannot give you that; I do not have that authority. Folks you are asking me questions that are not in my scope or realm of answering.

Room: Well you have been giving us a lesson on spiritual principles and what we were asking you is to tell us about what happened in the office in the 70s and you have not said a word about that.

Bob: Well that is what was happening in the office in the 70s up through the 80s.

Podium: Do you want to take questions?

Bob: Yes, I will take questions it is ok.

Podium: Ok Bob will just sort of point to people and we will ask questions in an orderly fashion. Is that ok with everybody?

Room: Do we need a microphone or

Bob: Well I will repeat your question if you will. Yes dear

Audience: When you made a statement, about we elect the RSRs ok, and we need to look at whom we are electing to send out to the conference to represent our conscience ok. When we do that and there are, motions passed and those RSRs come home and somewhere along the line in a few months, the rules get changed ok. Things start happening and the RSRs say that is not what happened that is not what got passed. I do not know where this piece of information came from but it has a WSO letterhead on it and the BOT signatures on it. How does that happen?

Bob: That is a good question that I cannot answer

Room: That is the point that I would like to bring up because I have participated and it is frustrating and spiritually corrupt you know. Let me ask you this. This is something else that comes to mind you were sharing about when the locks were changed and that the trustees is that correct voted on it

Bob: Yes, the Conference and the Trustees, both.

Audience: to ask Jimmy to resign or move aside and let some other manager gets in there and does the job done. Am I understanding you correctly? When those locks were changed and that man’s life was devastated.